I am dumb about googling places (like Dundale, for example)

[pretty_plant]

For some reasons, I never thought Dundale to be a real place. Whenever I googled Dundale, it always gave Dundale Ave or restaurant I never really thought of it as an actual place. I just know nothing about English geography.

Somebody just sent me this link: https://www.chilternsaonb.org/ccbmaps/792/137/dundale.html. Apparently, Dundale is the northern edge of Tring. But this article also explained the name of Dundale: dun means hill and dale means small valley, which sorta reminds me of a brugh. (Everybody must realize this at this point besides me).

This brought to my mind the fact that Thomas also had two names: Thomas of (de) Dundale (Dundelle) and Thomas de Donvil. And a quick check (also google) told me that Donvil was based on some locations in Normandy. So maybe the name Dundale was based on Thomas's connection with the brugh and Donvil was where his family came from? Or maybe his family might actually live in Tring. However, his father was called as a Norman magnate so maybe he would want to refer himself as to come from Donvil.

But I don't know much about this linguistic stuff and geographycal stuffs anyway. But it is interesting to think that the fairies had such an impact on Thomas that he was regularly called by everyone as Dundale instead of Donvil. I would enjoy it if somebody tells me I am wrong and explain to me what is wrong.

Even when Dundale was actually where Thomas came from, I think that Clarke intentionally chose the name with that meaning for him.

Comments

[regshoe]

Fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing your researches!

A bit of searching also brings up a Dundale Pond and a Dundale Wood on the southern and northern sides of the North York Moors respectively. I'd have gone with one of those as the most likely origin for Thomas, being in the north—but it would be interesting if he was from the Hertfordshire Dundale, but decided to stay with John Uskglass in the north after his return from Faerie.

That's very interesting about the possible meaning of the name! I'd always assumed that 'Dundale'/Dundelle' and 'Donvil' were different spellings/variations of the same name—perhaps Dundale was an Anglicised version of the family's originally Norman French name. But it's very appropriate if the name Dundale also had a meaning that came to reflect Thomas's later life amongst the fairies. ('Dun' is also common in Scottish place names like Dundee or Dunfermline, where it means 'fort'—perhaps also appropriate for a brugh!)

[ohveda]

I've never heard of Dundale in Hertfordshire before. Very interesting! To me, dale has always felt like such a northern word that I had just assumed Dundale to be in the north somewhere.

Like regshoe, I'd always imagined that Dundale and Donvil were different spellings of the same name, depending on whether the person writing it was more used to writing English or French names. The fact that Dundale is the more common spelling, suggests to me that Dundale is closer to the original pronunciation than Donvil; but then, who knows?

The question is, when did Thomas pick up the name Dundale (or Donvil)? Did he have it before he went to Faerie? Or is it a name that he chose, or was chosen for him, on his return to England?

As an aside, your posts are so interesting. I imagine the folks at friendsofenglishmagic would love to read them, if you ever fancied cross-posting them there.

[pretty_plant]

Dundale has such general meaning that it is the name of so many places (like Regshoe said).

I also thought like you did considering that Clarke gave us so many variations of the name Dundale (Dundell and Dundelle). But then, Dundelle felt more like a French version of Dundale than Donvil, which sounded like a different word.

I wonder whether Clarke meant something when she gave him so many variations of the same name (Dundale, Dundell and Dundelle). She even got the Gentleman to call him Tom Dundell. And I also feel like the name Thomas and Tom are names that show up in tales of fairies. His name always feels like it is the people's name (I am being bad at explaining myself).

I always imagine that group is filled with people who know much more about history and folklore and England than me so it is a little bit awkward to share my thoughts with people who are much more knowledgeable, especially when most of my posts are just whatever thoughts I come up with suddenly. I will probably post there once I organize everything better.

[pretty_plant]

Thomas was mentioned to be the younger son. It is likely that he was not the heir considering he was not the oldest and was probably considered dead by his family members. So there was not much money for him by returning. Staying with Uskglass would probaly provide him with better career opportunities than moving to Southern England considering he just helped invading England.

[regshoe]

Quite—I suppose the prospects in the south for anyone who'd just helped Uskglass in his invasion couldn't have been great, lol. Excellent headcanon material!

[ohveda]

I love that Clarke gave so many variations of Dundale's name. My own interpretation is that she didn't do it to add anything to the plot, but merely to make the story seem more authentic. What I love about Clarke's world-building is that she never gives us one definitive version of the backstory. Instead she gives us several different versions, contradicting versions, and leaves us to make up our own minds. It makes her fantastical world feel very real, because history IRL is never clear cut; there are always differing viewpoints and differing narratives, and the further back in time you go the more conjecture you get. For me, the fact that there are so many different spellings of Dundale's name reflects the fact that he first appears many hundreds of years ago.

I also feel like the name Thomas and Tom are names that show up in tales of fairies.
This is an excellent point, and not one I'd considered before, but you're right. Thomas has been one of the most common men's names in England over the centuries (perhaps only beaten in popularity by John and William). It makes sense that English people would bestow a common English name on a fairy (especially if they have difficulties understanding the fairy's own language). I would also say that in Clarke's work it's more common to have a fairy called Tom than Thomas. It's almost as if, by shortening the name to make it less formal, the English are trying to make this old, scary being seem more familiar and less of a threat. In real life you also find diminutive versions of names given to mysterious entities (think of Jack the Ripper, Spring-Heeled Jack and Tom Thumb). I don't know too much about folklore, but it definitely feels like Clarke is mimicking real life with her choice of fairy names here.

[pretty_plant]

I wonder why it is always Uskglass, though. Lanchester being constant is understandable because it is standardized as a place name. However, Uskglass is possibly foreign. People (scholars whose books Norrell read) might have very different ideas about how Uskglass was spelled. Maybe because Uskglass is a strange name so Clarke has to reign it in and gives it a standardized pronunciation throughout the book?

[ohveda]

Good point. I don't know why that is, and I hadn't even considered Lanchester!

For Uskglass, maybe it's because he's such a well-known figure that a common spelling of his name is well-established by the 19th century. It might not even be the original spelling, but it's the one that everyone has settled on.